The youth of today and the youth of yesterday

A colleague at school recently asked me if I knew of any examples of people from hundreds of years ago complaining about ‘the kids of today’.  I said I had a couple of ideas and that I would get them to him. After a bit of work on Google (see those 21st century skills in action!) I tracked down the quotation I had in mind. It was attributed to Socrates.

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

Except I hadn’t. Although this quotation was all over the internet, none of the sites I clicked on could provide an accurate citation. I found another quotation I dimly remembered.

What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?

This one was meant to be by Plato. Except, again, it wasn’t. I couldn’t find any reliable attribution. I found yet another one, this time apparently by Hesiod.

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint.

Then I found a slightly similar pattern of words attributed to Peter the Hermit.

The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of  today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress.

Again, there was no reliable citation. Finally, I found this.

When I look at the younger generation, I despair of the future of civilisation.

Again, it’s attributed to Aristotle but there is no reliable reference.

I found a few rather wonderful webpages (here, here and here) citing several of these quotations as proof that anyone who complains about the behaviour of the youth of today is a misguided whinger. Of course, despite constructing an entire thesis around these quotations, they too were unable to reference them correctly.

I also spoke to another colleague, who is a classicist, and we both embarked on a trawl of the internet and the very good perseus.tufts site to try and find these citations.  We had no luck. There were a few sites suggesting that some of the quotations were a misquotation or a slightly different translation of a speech in one of Aristophanes’s plays spoofing Socrates. Maybe. I had a look at some of the speeches, and this didn’t seem very plausible. We also had no luck in finding anything with a similar flavour – which is a bit odd when you think about it. None of the Greek philosophers were particularly shy about making authoritative assertions. If you wanted to find genuine examples of Plato or Socrates asserting that women are hugely inferior to men, for example, you would not have to look very far. So this silence on the subject of youths is odd. Of course, my colleague and I didn’t conduct an exhaustive search – we are teachers, we had marking to do – so it’s entirely possible some of these quotations are correct. If anyone does find a proper citation or anything else that is relevant, please link to it in the comments. The first colleague who asked the question still hasn’t had a proper answer.

I did manage to unearth the truth about one of the quotations, however. The first one I mentioned, attributed to Socrates, is definitely spurious. It seems to be that the Mayor of Amsterdam made it up in the 1960s. It was mentioned in an article in the New York Times in the same decade. And from then on it took on a life of its own, aided of course by the invention of the internet. When some researchers rang up the Mayor of Amsterdam and asked for the citation, he said he couldn’t remember the book he’d found it in.

The 1960s, of course, were famous for lots of protests by young people and the end of a culture of deference towards the old. It seems to me particularly significant that it was in that decade that a politician should feel the need to invent a quotation showing that kids have always been disrespectful. The subsequent afterlife of this quotation shows that it wasn’t just this politician who was in need of reassurance about the perennial misbehaviour of the young.

So, a quotation which is meant to show that kids have always been badly behaved instead seems to prove something quite different: that in the 1960s, people were so desperate to convince themselves that kids had always been badly behaved that they started making things up to prove it.

8 responses to “The youth of today and the youth of yesterday”

  1. Really interesting. I’ve seen some of those quotes (and sites) before, but never thought to embark on a more rigorous investigation into their reliability.

  2. amvs1 says:

    But there is a genuine Shakespeare line on the subject, from A WInter’s Tale:

    I would there were no age between sixteen and three-and-twenty, or that youth would sleep out the rest; for there is nothing in the between but getting wenches with child, wronging the ancientry, stealing, fighting–

  3. Yes, that is a good one and I was going to send it to my colleague. But it doesn’t quite capture the ‘kids of today’ aspect that the fabricated ones do – indeed, it suggests youthful bad behaviour is a constant, not something that is peculiar to a particular generation. I think if you read the Shakespeare one to many people they would be inclined (rightly or wrongly) to nod and agree at the presentation of a universal truth. The impact of the fabricated ones isn’t to make you nod and agree – it’s to make you think how stupid and wrong the ancients were to complain, and, by implication, that anyone who whinges about kids today is wrong too.

    The Shakespeare makes you think that youthful bad behaviour is a constant; the fabricated ones make you think that adults whinging about kids is a constant (with the implication that adults who do so are wrong).

    Also, I have just found out that Andrew Old got here before me – and that, shockingly, The Steer Report quoted one of the above fabrications.

  4. I’m not sure what your point is. You say, “that in the 1960s, people were so desperate to convince themselves that kids had always been badly behaved that they started making things up to prove it.” Does this mean that previous generations of children were generally well behaved? And did adults never moan about pesky kids before? That seems unlikely, although maybe I’ve just been infected by all this myth making.

  5. deiseach says:

    I tire of the incessant complaints of ‘dumbing down’ and, having seen another example of the genre, was going to quote Aristotle to show how people were complaining about ‘dumbing down’ 2,500 years ago. Something made me stop and check whether it was an accurate quote though (after all, GIYF), and you’ve saved me from pedalling a myth.Much obliged.

  6. And I'm the Dad says:

    I came across this page while investigating quotes like this. Thank you for all your research on it. I’ve linked to this page as an explanation for how spurious these quotes are.

    However, there are a few other youth-of-today quotes — with source links! — there as well. If you are curious, the article is at .

  7. John Ordover says:

    Attributed to The Republic, but you are in a better position to check than I am:

    ““Little by little, this spirit of license, finding a home, imperceptibly penetrates into manners and customs. From there, it invades contracts between man and man, and from contracts goes on to laws and constitutions, in utter recklessness, ending at last by an overthrow of all rights, private as well as public…. If amusements become lawless, and the youths themselves become lawless, they can never grow up into well-conducted and virtuous citizens…. They will invent for themselves rules which have been otherwise neglected, such as how to show respect to their elders; what honor is due to parents; what clothing and hairstyles are appropriate; and all behavior and manners in general.”

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